Tulpa.info - metaphysics

(in the same way that i feel tulpamancy is a type of hypnosis i feel like this is aswell because if it does really work like that, i kind of have doubt that it's actual "magic" but that it's more hypnosis we are 100% unconscious about other than what we think the effects will be? idk

Self deception to achieve a purpose is a valid option, I would like to ask why name it witchcraft, hypnosis would be more adequate, calling it witchcraft makes the whole thing hard to decipher and easy to miss-understand?

I wasn't talking about you, burn. The difference is that witchcraft is not hypnosis. The two are somewhat linked in many practices, but the whole concept of witchcraft is that there is something going on externally to you. I don't want to enter the debate of whether it is real or not, but even if it wasn't the techniques and beliefs to do it are very different than any current hypnosis we have.

wait, so was it me that was starting the argument? O_o my questions were genuine and were a foundation for a potential experiment we could run

10:50 AM

i can believe the people said what you claim you said, how did you determine it was caused by your spells rather than personal skills?

I agree the experiment could be done, but maybe not dependably over the internet. But if the argument is you're thinking of using self deception to achieve the goal you set yourself up for, I fully believe that is possible, I'm just having difficulty understanding what exactly do you mean with witchcraft or saying using things going on external to you?

@Burn shan't the Creep 👺 While I appreciate you offering a different perspective, please remember this is the metaphysics channel where it is assumed magic is a serious and real practice. While you don't have to believe in magic to participate in this channel, this isn't the best place for debates on if magic is real or not. If you want to continue that discussion, please feel free to move to #general-chat or #general-discussion (edited)

Albino Elephant

I wasn't talking about you, burn. The difference is that witchcraft is not hypnosis. The two are somewhat linked in many practices, but the whole concept of witchcraft is that there is something going on externally to you. I don't want to enter the debate of whether it is real or not, but even if it wasn't the techniques and beliefs to do it are very different than any current hypnosis we have.

yes i like witchcraft because it's not hypnosis

That doesn't seem really logical, if you can't explain how something works or give a certain result it doesn't seem like a valid reason to forward or to assume it as true. I'm not saying it isn't possible or wrong I just want a better exploration to the reasoning and reason as to why you think it is true.

12:51 PM

It isn't just that, people who read such a discussion and need genuine advice on how act on certain situation (be it medical, personal, monetary,...) might choose something out of speculation or personal feelings instead of thinking through it logically and seeing that they need to be grounded in reality when deciding on a solution to their problem

All of the repeatable parts of magic directly correlate with auto-suggestive practices. That's why Chaos Magic exists - to codify them free of any one particular traditional metaphysical belief structure, like Wicca or Hermeticism or whatever else. It's far more likely you make yourself more personable to animals and others through a spell than it is that you're directly effecting their behavior, as well as altering your perception of how they respond to you positively.

12:57 PM

I used to personally practice witchcraft over a decade ago, and it was all ritualized autosuggestion at the end of the day. The notion that it's external is meaningless, because autosuggestion alters your reality. Your reality, being something that is internal.

so essentially at its core its self-deception into believing a certain thing to help you act/complete/fulfill a need?

The fact it's magic is the self-deception, not the efficacy. The effects are quite "real" insofar as the brain is concerned, and the belief in magic alone can make them stronger.

To bring it back to the animal example. Y'cast a spell. Your mind relaxes its anxiety around animals. For anyone who actually knows how dogs for instance respond to things. They very much mirror what they see. You are happy, relaxed, and engaged with them - They are happy, relaxed, and engaged with you unless they've got some serious traumatic baggage of their own. Then you see how much more positively they react to you than to others who by default don't understand animal body-language and are usually neurotically picking behaviors apart like humans do, and even looking for danger, which makes animals more on edge. That confidence and reaffirmation makes it stronger, and pronounces the effects going forward. (edited)

I can perfectly believe that a person can through mental gymnastics change their perception and their response to events, I don't know the suitability to the majority of people to the task but I do think its possible to do. I still want to know why use: spell, magic, witchcraft, ... The words have previous connotations and preassigned meanings, and using them (or prescribing them) to the effects of the mind, makes the whole thing miss-leading and makes the average person confused or makes them think your talking about it in the literal sense of having powers over reality.

Ritual objects have power regardless of whether you believe in them or not. They're symbolic.

But why not assign a different name?

1:24 PM

Name the practice with a different name? (edited)

Well in this context I very much doubt a Wiccan for example does disbelieve. Why would they describe a spell as an autosuggestion when that would strip the symbolic power from the action that they gain from their belief? (edited)

1:28 PM

If you have the ability to use metaphysical tools... why not?

1:29 PM

Theoretically they can be perceived as additive rather than a dichotomy with the scientific ones. Though that isn't my personal view.

1:29 PM

Most people with religious views view magic as complementary to science rather than opposed to it.

1:29 PM

Which makes it possible to use both, in conjunction.

What do you define magic as, in simple words?

Any ritualized practice that is intended to have metaphysical effects.

and what do you define metaphysical as?

Supernatural. Me personally, I do think that science is fundamentally opposed to magic so my definition is likely to include a hard nope on magic being scientific.

1:35 PM

But it's not really my definition that matters, since that's part of the linguistic trickery of the autosuggestion for them.

1:36 PM

Most of those with metaphysical beliefs perceive them as additive to science's limited scope.

It matters to understand the discussion and what you mean with certain words

Zen

If you have the ability to use metaphysical tools... why not?

What does metaphysical mean in this sense?

1:38 PM

I cant ask or answer or even understand if we have differing thought on what a word means

I don't mean literally they're doing magic here. I mean they're improving the amount of symbolism and connection to things their mind can draw on in terms of the autosuggestion. Let me give an example: There was an experiment done with autosuggested, made-up rituals. Some of these rituals were clearly magical, some were pseudo-scientific quackery. The room was filled with artifacts either from christianity, or scientific graphs and crap; or both. A room with both; as long as you are able to accept the imagery; can have a more profound effect.

its a placebo?

Hypnosis is literally speaking, as an action, the acceptance of imagery and ideas.

1:42 PM

Yes. Placebos are suggestion-based.

So using the names is because they have the connotations of "mystical" behind it?

i wonder if i didn't believe in albino elephant spell if it would work on me

Yes, if you believe in magic. And you call something magic. You may literally trick your brain into thinking magic is happening and cause positive effects.

1:45 PM

If you are sit down in a chair and hypnotized. Part of the process of making it work is building up a detailed symbolic image that resonates with you. And the last part is important. Would someone with not much faith or understanding in science and psychology but a strong belief in witchcraft have a better time trying to hypnotize themselves or cast a spell on themselves?

1:46 PM

Probably the latter; but the actions are the same.

Deleted User

i wonder if i didn't believe in albino elephant spell if it would work on me

Well, suggestion technically requires acceptance, not actual belief. Which is the distinction. Strong belief helps.

i see that makes sense thank you

1:48 PM

and i think you are right

1:48 PM

i think as long as it helps you and others then that's fine but i think what's important is asking yourself if you care that what you believe is true and if you care that what you tell others is true

Yeah, outside of the realm of the actual praxis of magic, it has social implications that you practice magic. Ones that are not entirely positive. A society that broadly believes in magic over science is actively a little dangerous.

i think it can be dangerous because if you form believes in certain way about magic you can also use that same standards for learning about wearing masks

1:51 PM

and other things

My default impression of religions and metaphysical practices as a whole are they are capable of being benign. But often they are not and take centuries of group-reflection to fix.

1:53 PM

Chaos Magic is pretty much the most presumption-agnostic of the forms of magic. It actively tried to render down magic into broad, purely practical categories. But the presumption that it's magic is the sole reason Chaos Mages are capable of interacting with negative outside-your-head "spirits".

1:54 PM

From a scientific perspective, these are thoughtforms generated by your unconscious mind. It would be deeply irrational for such a thing to harm you. But for them, the acceptance of that truth very seriously does make them dangerous and hostile.

Burn shan't the Creep 👺

so essentially at its core its self-deception into believing a certain thing to help you act/complete/fulfill a need?

that's what i was saying, i felt like magic was self-deception which in a way is also hypnosis

1:58 PM

but a thing that also i find weird about magic just being self deception is like, for making objects that you constantly drop less unlucky like.. i don't see how such "quick" self deception can lead to muscle memory stopping it from dropping, if it even is muscle memory-- god i hardly even know what that is, what i'm saying is, i find magic weird to be self deception as it's so quick. mainly from what i've seen in witchcraft is that the rituals don't really even take an hour for most.

Time is required for most novices in magic the same way it's required for hypnosis novices. It's not actually necessary. Suggestion works best in a trance state. Chaos Magic calls this Gnosis. When you're starting out in Chaos Magic you learn to meditate to achieve Gnosis - but after that, you'll eventually be able to flick it on like a switch. Even considering that though - suggestion works without trance states. And it totally can effect how efficient or functional your musculature acts.

Zen

Time is required for most novices in magic the same way it's required for hypnosis novices. It's not actually necessary. Suggestion works best in a trance state. Chaos Magic calls this Gnosis. When you're starting out in Chaos Magic you learn to meditate to achieve Gnosis - but after that, you'll eventually be able to flick it on like a switch. Even considering that though - suggestion works without trance states. And it totally can effect how efficient or functional your musculature acts.

what's chaos magic?

An amusing magical tradition that believes in nothing. Or everything.

2:13 PM

It's totally valid to cast a spell to become batman in Chaos Magic.

how does that work

Practically speaking it was made when a dude went "So all these magical traditions have overlapping stuff, and the stuff that doesn't work reliably doesn't overlap. So let's put together all the stuff that works and throw out everything else." Chaos Magic acknowledges as its core tenet that belief is more important that the actual actions of magic.

2:16 PM

This results in things like it being irrelevant what god you invoke so long as you're invoking something you believe in.

2:16 PM

IE. Batman.

i still don't get it

Belief = Has psychic effects

2:21 PM

Spirits are made of belief. Which means that gods are real but are man-made. In theory it doesn't matter in Chaos Magic what you believe in, it exists if you believe in it or you can make it. The trick is of course, you would have to really believe in batman to make it work. Otherwise you'd probably be better off invoking an actual god of justice or something.

2:23 PM

It's heavily reductive and postmodern - but interesting none the less. I like it mostly because it has some interesting things to say on the psychological side of things.

Zen

Belief = Has psychic effects

i understand belief but, how would that apply to the real world? i mean, if you really believed in having a jojostand and you're barraging someone, would just belief actually do that or would it just be illusions? i'm not sure, magic is weird

It would not likely do anything to them unless they shared in your belief.

3:39 PM

Curses, simply don't work unless your target is aware of them, and suggestible to you actually having magical powers. At that point you need to convince them of your ability; not just you. (edited)

3:40 PM

Amusingly this does not stop people from trying. The tradition totally still has curses and stuff like that. Reality tends to ensue when you try to curse someone though and nothing observable happens. At best you'll have given yourself the delusion that you've somehow made their life worse and start cherry-picking the bad things that happen to them.

3:46 PM

That being said, shared phenomena are definitely a thing. Chaos Magic for instance has practices dedicated to telepathic communication - which fails to hold up under real scrutiny but is sufficient at causing phenomena for the two practioners.

3:47 PM

If you get two chaos mages to make stands you could probably experience an actual psychic combat, complete with imposed psychic pain or whatever.

Zen

All of the repeatable parts of magic directly correlate with auto-suggestive practices. That's why Chaos Magic exists - to codify them free of any one particular traditional metaphysical belief structure, like Wicca or Hermeticism or whatever else. It's far more likely you make yourself more personable to animals and others through a spell than it is that you're directly effecting their behavior, as well as altering your perception of how they respond to you positively.

Yeah that's what I heard too but then when I tried to look more into chaos magic it all talked about people mast------ing onto sigils.

Lewd wizards? Gnosis is best defined as an unthinking trance; I think I recall people saying sex stuff can be used to achieve Gnosis. But I don't think it's the presumed norm.

Yeah, I'd like to find stuff on other methods of doing it if I can put together the capacity to potentially be disappointed again.

Deleted User

i wonder if i didn't believe in albino elephant spell if it would work on me

Hard to say, I remember one experiment where they found people were still affected by a bias even after being informed of it and while actively keeping it in mind. Granted, this isn't referring to a cognitive bias so... not sure, but I certainly wouldn't rule it out. The mere virtue of being aware of and thinking about it may cause it to have an effect.

Lula! | 👻

Yeah, I'd like to find stuff on other methods of doing it if I can put together the capacity to potentially be disappointed again.

Here's some. It does indeed cite the sex stuff too.

1

eyeballs number 6 So tell me more about this chaos magic ...

Zen

Here's some. It does indeed cite the sex stuff too.

Yeah, but that's not as bad as the other stuff I read cause the other ones focused on it more than all the other stuff!!

About half of chaos magic teachings involve it, but a lot don't. The idea is you use your emotions to move forward your mental state and that in particular has a lot of emotions behind it. It isn't necessary and i don't even think most methods have it in then. (edited)

4:15 AM

There are a lot of methods to enter gnosis but you can search up void and breathing meditations which are fairly popular.

The amount of witchcraft techniques I know that involve bodily fluids is seriously disturbing. Ew. (edited)

Zen

From a scientific perspective, these are thoughtforms generated by your unconscious mind. It would be deeply irrational for such a thing to harm you. But for them, the acceptance of that truth very seriously does make them dangerous and hostile.

Could you elaborate on that a bit more, mate? Dangerous to themselves, or others?

Nickolai

Could you elaborate on that a bit more, mate? Dangerous to themselves, or others?

To others and themselves. Possession in the classical sense of the term is a thing in chaos magic. These being entities who believe they are not reliant on your body to survive and may be hostile to you, others, or your environment. Chaos magic has a whole bunch of ritualistic protective measures specifically for dealing with hostile spirits as a result.

Hm.

6:46 PM

This channel used to be rather more pro magic on IRC. What happened to those folks? :P (IIRC it also required you to join it voluntarily, although I think that was just IRC. )

6:47 PM

Not saying the change is bad. I hang around -- er, used to hang around -- a meta server (used to moderate it, actually) and the crazy stuff people had to say was just beyond belief.

6:48 PM

I think I was perhaps the only person who had the "skeptic," role, and meant it.

No idea personally, though I've been a tulpamancer for quite some time I am relatively new when it comes to engaging with any community.

How long have you been doing tulpamancy? And did you use any metaphysical symbolism or processes to create your tulpas?

Depends on your definition of begin. I started in earnest at the start of 2019. However I also briefly attempted it for several months in a somewhat... not useful state back in 2014 I believe. That early tulpa never saw the light of day and only ever behaved in a rudimentary fashion. And no, no magic used. I was long past witchcraft at the point of making both of those tulpas, though I did use symbolic personality forcing.

wait, zen was into witchraft?

When I was a wee bab teenager, yes.

dangerous times

Indeed.

7:13 PM

I forget what a long time means here in tulpa-land. I remember thinking 10 years old was proper ancient for a tulpa, but Skyler is coming up on 9 this year, so. . . Dunno.

it's like life, when you are 10 you think 30 years is ancient, and then suddenly you wake up 30 years old

That being said my jungian-shadow-self thoughtform also originates from my teenager years, though not through magic or through intent. It was basically made through maladaptive daydreaming. If you count that one as a tulpa then it's about 12 or 13 I think?

5 more years and that tulpa can drink alcohol. sorry americans

Eh. It's fine. Our schooling is so ass backwards, I wouldn't want children having access to alcohol without a snudge of college education first. . . Not that our colleges are much better anymore. T___T